In this conversation, Peta Stapleton and Dr. Bob Schwarz discuss the concept of the fourth wave in therapy and the role of energy psychology. They explore the importance of integrating the body into therapy and the connection between energy psychology and polyvagal theory. They also discuss the challenges of acceptance in the traditional field of therapy and the need for more research and understanding. Their vision for the future includes the widespread use of energy psychology for self-regulation and the treatment of adverse childhood events.

Takeaways

• The fourth wave in therapy involves integrating the body into therapy and recognizing the importance of energy psychology.
• Polyvagal theory provides a framework for understanding the connection between the autonomic nervous system and energy psychology.
• The traditional field of therapy faces challenges in accepting the legitimacy of energy psychology and its impact on the body.
• Research is needed to further explore the mechanisms and effectiveness of energy psychology.
• The vision for the future includes the widespread use of energy psychology for self-regulation and the treatment of adverse childhood events.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and the Concept of the Fourth Wave in Therapy

07:23 Polyvagal Theory and its Connection to Energy Psychology

15:38 Challenges in Accepting Energy Psychology in the Traditional Field

31:29 The Vision for the Future: Self-Regulation and Adverse Childhood Events

Keywords: fourth wave, therapy, energy psychology, modalities, polyvagal theory, autonomic nervous system, vagus nerve, mechanism, research, acceptance, traditional field, self-regulation, adverse childhood events

Peta Stapleton (00:01.6)
Hello everyone, and I am thrilled to be speaking to a friend and a colleague this morning. So Dr. Bob Schwarz, how are you today?

bob (00:09.89)
Good, Peta, how are you?

Peta Stapleton (00:11.74)
fabulous and we have an exciting conversation and neither of us have any scripts. We're just going to free flow this one. So it's a conversation that we both enjoy having closely to our hearts because of the nature of it. Bob, I really want to just start. I talk about and I know Fred Gallo talks about and a bunch of others the fourth wave in therapy and what that actually means. But what does it mean to you? What

In your work and the whole energy psychology kind of field and lots of modalities, like what does it mean to you? What do you see the differences to other types of waves of therapy?

bob (00:50.334)
Oh gosh, you're catching me. Remind me about your four waves. Oh no. So, I guess what I would say, you know, I forget which wave is which. You had the, you had psychodynamic, then you had behaviorism, then you had cognitive behaviorism. Okay, those are the three. So, I guess the thing that I would say, you know, is

Peta Stapleton (00:53.173)
Hahaha!

Peta Stapleton (01:04.417)
Yeah.

and then cognitive behavioral. That's right. Yeah.

bob (01:16.406)
You know, you had psychodynamic, which was actually, if you really get down to it, was a little energy focused, if you really pay attention. And then you had all the behavior stuff, and then the cognitive behaviors, and that's all good. But the problem is that this, this thing, the body, the body, it's the body. That's the missing piece. I mean, what, we're not French. I don't mean to, you know, we're not Descartes.

That's the you know, this separation is been the big bugaboo. And even people like, you know, I remember when I first heard Dan Siegel, you know, I'll just never forget it. It was it was in his conference hall and he's talking about, you know, what is the mind and he had this whole he has this whole stick that he does. And then he says, you know, the mind controls the flow of info of energy and information over time. And when I heard that,

I heard it as like an echo over time, information energy over time. And I was like, oh my God. Oh, he's got the body, it's embodied. So that's, I think the fundamental difference is this more integrative approach that whether or not you even buy the energy metaphor, which we can talk about, but it's connecting this with this. And of course, we'll get into a Polly Wiggle theory and all this other stuff.

But you know, the neocortex is overrated.

Peta Stapleton (02:48.18)
and sometimes underdeveloped. Sorry that it... So Bob, tell me, cause I probably don't know your backstory as to how you got into this field, which I think I would love to hear that. But was it the Dan Siegel moment or was it before that? Tell me the backstory.

bob (02:50.262)
Well, you have a lot too.

bob (02:59.278)
of the mystery.

bob (03:06.05)
Oh, no, no. No, my backstory, okay, well, I guess I can say it now since it's Leo. You know, my backstory goes all the way back to in being in college, well, no, yeah, early college when I discovered marijuana. Right, I was doing, you know, that kind of therapy long before, but for me it was, you know.

you'd get high and different then than now. But anyway, I'd feel like, oh my God, I didn't know you could feel like this. I was really, it was like, I just, this connection, blah, you know, all these wonderful things, which is a revelation to me. And so my, for me, it was like, well, that's cool. How do I do it without the drugs?

Peta Stapleton (03:55.965)
Mm. Wow. I don't think anyone knows that backstory.

bob (03:58.046)
which is a little different from some people who go like, I always want the drugs. I was curious, like, well, this is it. Okay, you can get here. So, and this will, okay, so that happens. And, you know, and I learned meditation, I learned some various things. And then I go to grad school and I sort of come across hypnosis and Milton Erickson. Well, I was taken just in love with this.

And so I went down this, I mean, I actually went to see Jeff Zeig do a three day thing. And the interesting, speaking of backstory, is I like to learn from the inside. And so he does three days and on the third day he's going to do a demonstration subject. And I'm like, I need to be this subject. How am I going to do this? There's 150 people in this thing.

He's going to, he's going, okay, who's got a problem? And I'm what, so I raise, I raise my hand and he goes, you know, yes, what's your problem? And I say, stage fright. Cause I had, cause I had massive stage fright. You know, and you know, I play guitar and all that. Well, I play guitar then too, but then I had massive stage fright. I would have full blown, it was, it was bad. Well, how could he resist? I mean, I'm going to get up in front of 150 people. The guy was stage,

Peta Stapleton (05:08.735)
Oh well.

Peta Stapleton (05:13.537)
Yes.

Peta Stapleton (05:25.597)
Exposure therapy.

bob (05:27.615)
Yeah, so long story short, he does this thing the stage fright goes away I'm hooked and I do all this for a while And then that goes into things like okay doing it quicker doing it faster and LP EMDR, you know how to do how do you do this better? How do you do this quicker? How do you speak on multiple levels of communication? Because that was the whole Eric Sonia and thing was multiple levels of communication well

And then I learned about this energy psychology stuff. And I was pretty, I gotta say, I was really skeptical at first, because I was like, I could do stuff pretty quick, but you're talking about the five minute phobia cure? I didn't believe it for a second. Well, you know, I went to a workshop with Fred Galla, blah, had this experience, like, oh my God, this is pretty amazing. And, you know, so down the rabbit hole I went.

Peta Stapleton (06:15.572)
Rest is history.

Peta Stapleton (06:24.372)
Wow. And for anyone listening who is going, okay, energy, psychology, we talk about that as an umbrella term, don't we? And lots of modalities or approaches sit underneath that. And you've mentioned quite a few there, you know, EFT, tapping, thought field therapy, you know, even kinesiology and things like that sitting underneath there. So lots of lots of different modalities that can get you to the same end.

bob (06:26.181)
I didn't know that was coming.

bob (06:47.326)
Yeah.

Peta Stapleton (06:53.836)
probably most recently, you know, for you and I, what we've been pondering in our conversations is that mechanism of, so if we've got this umbrella term, energy psychology, and we're talking, okay, fourth wave, include the body, however you do that in that therapy process, really, is there a common mechanism across all of them? And we're certainly testing that and some research together at the moment. But is there something that connects the whole lot? And I remember seeing

a couple of years back, you gave me a copy of it, and you actually had DayCut in the title, but it was about polyvagal theory. And it was, you know, the first time we started kind of talking about, well, is this an autonomic nervous system or vagus nerve function improvement across all those modalities? Talk to me about that. We wanna go polyvagal, so talk to me about that.

bob (07:45.558)
Sure. Well, for those... So here's the thing. I mean, you know, I don't know what the audience knows, but, you know, tapping EFT, you know, this stuff seems to be useful for just way too many, all these different things, all these, all these mental health things, all these anxiety, depression, PTSD, which is weird, right? Like what's...

And then you've done studies with the brain, like we have the food studies, and I never can remember the names of the brain. I just, I have a disability, but, you know, certain things light up over here, then pain studies, totally different part of the brain changes over this tapping stuff. Well, that just makes no sense at all.

And then the other kind of this interesting thing that from way back when is when people have this experience when they do this kind of tapping stuff, what generally happens is they come in, the person has a problem and they're upset. And then the therapist or practitioner takes them doing this weird tapping thing. And then at some point the person says, okay, now tell me how you feel. And this is what tends to happen. The person...

kind of goes, it may take a couple of times, but sooner or later they do this. Where'd it go?

Peta Stapleton (09:10.69)
Mmm.

bob (09:13.694)
Now that's what happens over, so phenomenologically, that's pretty interesting, happens regularly, right? You have, right? Where did it go? What are they talking about? When they say, where did it, and they look around quizzically, what are they saying? And so what they're saying is, I used to have this experience welling up of yuck.

Peta Stapleton (09:19.413)
Yes. Yep.

bob (09:39.558)
and it's gone, I can think about it and it's gone. What could possibly account for this? And then the other piece of information that's kind of interesting, back in 2001, they were doing studies with, you know, when Roger Callahan was doing TFT, they were trying to say why it worked and they had this thing called heart rate variability, which measures the variability of the heart beating. Your heart, even this, my heart beats at 72 a minute. Well,

You don't want that to be like a metronome. That would be very bad. You want it to change and move and flex. You want it to be variable. And the more variable it is, the healthier you are. Make a long story short, they did tapping with people and then they measured their heart rate available before and after, and their heart rate variability always got a lot better. And they sort of said, well, see, this is why. But they didn't know anything about polyvagal theory.

And so as I was learning about polyvagal theory, which the vagal nerve is this thing that comes from the gut all the way up to the brain, and it has basically one job, basically. It has a few, it's ancillary job. But this number one job is to answer the question, am I safe? It does it for rodents, it does it for lizards, it does it for human beings, it does some other things too. But the first and foremost is, am I safe? And it goes up, it's mostly, it's 80% up.

and 20% it goes the other way. So it's not under a lot of cognitive control.

bob (11:15.49)
And by the way, one of the ways you measure it is with heart rate variability. That's a really good proxy for it, it turns out. All right, so this is a long, big story about, it looks like there's a lot of sneaking suspicion that if you shift this vagal nerve from one state to another, and I don't wanna get too wonky for folks, that seems to change, meaning that the person no longer has messages

Peta Stapleton (11:15.521)
Yes.

bob (11:45.57)
that they're in danger, that's the ball game. And it's well below the neocortex. So when someone says, where did it go? What they're saying is, basically, I'm no longer getting messages from the vagal nerve that I am in danger. And so my body relax and I can be calm. It's all good. I'm never surprised.

Peta Stapleton (12:13.39)
Mmm.

bob (12:18.338)
And so now we're trying to figure out how to measure that in better ways that we're, you and I are sort of working on. So hopefully that wasn't too long and involved.

Peta Stapleton (12:27.24)
This is true, we're doing that parallel to this. And I guess it is, or it does seem to be a logical explanation, doesn't it? Why so many different targeted modalities at a therapy level that use the body, and that's where you started, it's like this was the missing piece. But if you can target that 80% message, vagal, nerve kind of information up, and that changes.

It also explains why it seems to last over time. So in our trials, you know, we go back a year, two years later and go, oh, you know, how's your pain? How's your food craving, whatever. And truly we get the same look. They look at you and go, I don't know what you're talking about cause I don't have pain. You know, and you're like, oh. And you have to remind them. And they can't even embody that person that they were a year ago cause they're like, that's not my reality anymore. But to us, it seems to be.

bob (13:04.694)
Yeah, they forget. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Peta Stapleton (13:18.152)
And if we use that autonomic nervous system as that big kind of description of the body, if that appears regulated and that person can respond better, one, that's why it can work. Any of these techniques can work on so many things because people do raise eyebrows and go, what do you mean it can work for a phobia and cigarette smoking and a food craving and depression? That just seems odd.

bob (13:38.41)
Because the thing is the vagal nerve basically says there is or there isn't a tiger in the room. And the fact of the matter is there's never a tiger. I mean, we don't live in the jungle anymore. There's never a tiger in the room. For us, the tiger is shame, anxiety, stored trauma, whatever it is, somehow gets coded.

that situations are dangerous and all the behaviors, anxiety, addictive behaviors, certainly PTSD, are all secondary responses. And by the way, the neocortex is like, so if it's, you know, oh, I need to eat food because why? Because I'm anxious and this gives me comfort and it tamps down this thing. But if there's no press from the bottom, then that part of the brain kind of calms down or the pain part calms down.

and that's why it can be different parts of the brain. I mean, that's the idea. That's the thing. It just makes so much, and that's why, why does EMDR work? Well, maybe it does the same thing. It may be that everybody gets a prize, and that's why all those polyvagal techniques work so.

Peta Stapleton (14:36.966)
Mm.

Peta Stapleton (14:48.856)
Absolutely. So I'm going to ask the million dollar question then, just because you're in the field, I'm in the field. Why then given, and we're measuring this at the moment, so anyone listening even in time, we may well have had stuff come out to confirm this. Why then do you think it's so hard for the traditional field of therapy, psychology, psychotherapy, counseling? Why do you think it's so hard for them to accept that

using the body, whether that's tapping on acupuncture points or doing some sort of other somatic processing technique or trauma-informed yoga or whatever it is, if it's having an impact physiologically on the vagus nerve and of course we've got a theory wrapped around it, why is it so hard for people to get their head around that this is legitimate?

bob (15:38.39)
I frankly don't know. To be honest, I don't, I mean, well, I don't want to get into, I want to stay as focused here. I think maybe, maybe for one, right, everybody's into the brain.

Peta Stapleton (15:40.116)
I'm sorry.

bob (15:55.55)
You know, as I said, it's overrated. You know, I think we've, people, this is a fun story. This happened a bunch of, I don't know, 45, 40 years ago. Guy walks into, it's in England, guy walks into the clinic, says, I get these headaches. And at then they had just very, very basic cat scans and they give the guy a cat scan. He has no brain. There's no brain. I'm like, what? And so they, they're freaked out. This isn't The Lancet, by the way.

And then they take him to the state of the art cat scan, which was really now it's just a toy compared to now. And they discover he has this gigantic encephalopathy. So his brain is plastered around his skull. But other than the headache, yeah, yeah. Other than the headache and his normal IQ, you know, so this is like, you know, in math, if you have one disproving,

Peta Stapleton (16:38.9)
Wow. I'm gonna find this study. Try and link it.

bob (16:53.894)
Your theory's shot. In any event, brains are overrated. Not that I would encourage anybody to do this. But somehow, whether it's the culture, the behavior, the...

bob (17:09.414)
Well, we could get into, you know, below the neck is the body, what's in the body down there. You know, the repression and all this. I don't know. I think there's a myriad of things. It's beyond me, to be honest. You would think...

bob (17:28.978)
You know, you would think scientists would be curious. It's so unusual, but I get that you don't get it, but aren't you curious? You're supposed to be curious if you're a scientist. It's not a problem if you're a physicist. I mean, if you're, or if you're, I was just watching stuff on about what's going on in physics right now. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that's just really outrageous, but somehow in the medical, psychology, and the-

Peta Stapleton (17:37.133)
Mmm.

bob (17:58.45)
I don't know. I don't get it, to be honest. What, why do you say? You tell me.

Peta Stapleton (18:02.818)
And I guess.

Peta Stapleton (18:06.592)
From my point of view, I guess we fall back to that old translational gap that medicine has already kind of given to us that it really takes 17 to 20 years for that kind of what's happening in research to, and certainly already in clinical practice, kind of cross that kind of gap into mainstream and really the suggestion is only 20% will probably make it EMDR took about 25 years.

Peta Stapleton (18:35.144)
maybe people just sit and watch and kind of go, until they truly want to accept that that's viable or legitimate or has enough science behind it. And that term evidence based gets thrown around a lot. And it's like, well, what does that mean? And my question is, I was asked it yesterday by a different academic, different university. And I'm like, well, how much evidence do you need for you to consider it evidence based? Is 300 papers enough? Do you need 5000? Like, what is it? Or do you need somebody

organization to say it. Like what does it mean to you because certainly in medicine you can have single cases and any of course one that proves a certain medical technique and that becomes a gold standard way of approaching surgery for example and they just do it on one patient and it's successful. Yes so you're like what does it mean that kind of thing so I think and it probably you know

bob (19:23.85)
Really? I didn't know that.

Peta Stapleton (19:31.736)
catches people. The one thing I've noticed, and I'm curious to hear if you have too, is I think the newer graduates that have been coming out in the last couple of decades almost have a shorter time span of doing traditional talk-based therapies they may have been trained in before they start looking for other things. I used to see that it took about a decade that colleagues had come out and after 10 years go, oh, what's that thing you do or whatever? It seems to

now, and I don't know if it's because I'm in academia or the world's changed a lot and there's more demand and more need, my graduates are coming out and after a year or two going, what else you got? You know, this stuff's not working. Maybe the complexity of patient problems has increased as well.

bob (20:16.802)
Well, I have almost a different take. So back when, you know, when I was training, you know, there was all kinds of those, it was a much wider open field. I mean, there was Virginia Satir, who's that? Eric Milton Erickson, who's that? Jay Haley, who's that? Nobody, you know, and I remember being, Eric Fromm was like a big deal to me. And there was all this stuff. And so people were Gestalt Therapy, Fitzpearl.

Peta Stapleton (20:30.94)
Yes.

bob (20:45.87)
transactional analysis, all that's gone. It's just one thing and one thing only. CBT has, you know, so I don't see that as a particularly positive development. And actually I think that's probably why things have been so hard, because it's not CBT, you know? Now, you're saying something different. And the other thing, by the way, I've noticed is, a lot of people I see trained in CBT as a rule,

there are exceptions, but you're always kind of on top and you're talking to people like, you really shouldn't, you should change your thinking. And so it's that kind of thing where this stuff is much more experiential. Back in the day, experiential was all the rage. Now, not so much. Anyway, but I think there's new development that you're talking about is, A, there's a lot more stuff out about mind, body, and younger people are just much more comfortable with.

mind, body, energy, it's, you know, there's not a problem for them. And second, I just think, I mean, CBT is good for what it's good for, and I use CBT techniques, but it's good for what it's good for, not everything. And it's very, and people don't have the breadth of training. They just don't. And so, and we're.

Peta Stapleton (21:57.795)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting. It's almost like when the standards came in or the accreditations or whatever with what's taught, it kind of almost did become a bit of a limit, didn't it? Because I too, like back in the day, worked in a drug and alcohol rehab for many years and their orientation was Gestalt and transactional analysis. So it's like, oh, okay, let's learn this. Whereas CBT wasn't kind of a thing. So you're right.

there was a lot more available when there weren't so many constraints. And it's almost like sometimes research, you know, can, can strain perhaps some of that innovation or just the presence being with a client.

bob (22:38.398)
Oh, well, that absolutely. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you put it, that research is the end all and be all. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm also, I'm a big supporter of research, as you know. I mean, but it's always way behind. I mean, it's only, I don't know, the research on meditation is only about what? 3000 years behind. Cause they didn't have the technology. Now they have the technology. So research is always behind innovation.

Peta Stapleton (22:59.06)
Yeah.

bob (23:07.686)
And if you make an idol of it, it becomes a problem. It's useful for what it's good for. But you have to be curious.

Peta Stapleton (23:15.244)
Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's the other way around. And I think this is happening in the EFT, TFT, any tapping acupuncture style therapies, that the groundswell in clinical practice that has embraced those techniques is almost having a greater influence on coming up through. It's almost like I've been suggested here that it's kind of happened backwards, that normally research informs government policy, that informs clinical practice.

And it's almost like we've got this ground swelling clinical practice where people are like, well, it works, so I'm gonna use it. And that's having an influence the other way, which is interesting, you know, compared to what might be traditional, so.

bob (23:58.027)
I mean, integrative health as a business was all driven from the ground up. I mean, it wasn't top down. And because there was there still is a lot of resistance to it. For by the way, if you look at Wikipedia, they have they have resistance to it. You can't I mean, Wikipedia is good for a lot of things, but nothing about anything integrative. They have a real problem with the they've been hijacked. Frankly, that's a long story.

Peta Stapleton (24:23.552)
Yeah, yeah.

bob (24:24.33)
So yeah, and I would also say that, because of people like you, doing all this really good research on things like EFT and TFT, so now you got both. You've got the groundswell, and then you've got research that actually backs this stuff up. It's the mechanism, but the thing that still throws people who are hardcore, hardcore science, positive science, positive.

Peta Stapleton (24:41.136)
Yeah.

bob (24:53.986)
positivistic scientists, they want to know what the mechanism is. Like you have to have the mechanism. And, um, which isn't really true, but they think it is. And, um, and without it, then it's just, it's just gobbledygook.

Peta Stapleton (25:06.38)
Mm, yeah. So we're getting there. I think we're pretty close. I do think within Bob and my lifetime, one, we'll have the mechanism in print and two, probably some other level of acceptance if indeed that's important to people out there. So yeah, it is where we're.

bob (25:16.838)
Yeah.

bob (25:23.89)
I mean, yeah, I mean, the other thing is, I mean, to be fair, the other side of it is I think people got a little, you know, like it like everything else, there was a little bit, people can get too enthusiastic, they can make claims that are, you know, a bit overly, overly robust. And so people would say things and make and say and say things that I think would just turn other people off. I know it, and they said we, back in the day, we

We were sort of in that thing like, oh, we're better than. And we stopped that about, well, it was 2008, we kind of stopped doing that because it just pisses people off. So we talked much more about how this is like that. This connects with that, this work connects with that work. And it's just another example. So it makes it less of a, we're not claiming some magic.

thingamabob and we're so much better, which just annoys people.

Peta Stapleton (26:23.944)
Yeah, you're 100% right because even when we've published, you know, comparison trials and we've had, you know, EFT compared to CBT for different conditions over the years and when we publish, most of the results that we show is that EFT is comparable to CBT. What's ironic is the journals make me write it's non-inferior. So that's the word they like, non-inferior, but it's comparable and a lot of people in the field, practitioners,

bob (26:33.28)
Oh yeah.

Peta Stapleton (26:51.084)
get a little bit upset and go, no, because we often have superiority, if you like, at the long-term follow-up. So it actually lasts a lot longer and the outcomes are achieved in half the time. So there definitely are these elements that make it faster, more effective, and it has longevity compared to gold standards. But I always like to, exactly what you said, say to people, no, the first step is to be comparable and non-inferior.

The second step is to point out where differences might lie. Because if you come out all guns blazing and kind of go, we're better, we're better, A, journals won't publish it. And B, no one really responds well to that from the other side. So I tapped on my non-inferior word many years ago because I have to use that in my politics. It's still, it's awkward. It's like, but yeah, it's highly comparable.

bob (27:38.88)
terrible English, but alright.

bob (27:46.838)
Yeah. And the other thing that goes on with, I think, um, if you look at something like EMDR for, you know, which is a not technically energy psychology. Well, actually, the other thing that the people get upset about, we just had this thing, you know, about, well, you know, they're just doing whatever you put it. They're just doing the same stuff. EFT or TFT. It's the same as all the other stuff. They're just now tapping and they're it's a purple hat and you're wearing and it's as the tapping has nothing to do with it.

And then, you know, we said, well, no, actually, there is there is some active ingredient here, which there is research that supports that. That said, there are things that are buried into the into the technique that are not the tapping or not that are.

Peta Stapleton (28:22.078)
Mm, yep.

bob (28:35.286)
ways of deconstructing, ways of working with people that other folks do that are part of doing really good clinical work that most people are not well trained in. When we do EFT with people in a certain, people tell a story about a traumatic event. Well, if you go tell your story normally, if something really bad happened, you tell your story, people start crying and ab-reacting, and they blow out their circuitry. And so what happens is they get more traumatized.

That's not really very good treatment. It doesn't fit with the latest in neurology and trauma protocols. It's bad therapy. But what EFT does is it does it in a certain way where we tap along the way, we do certain things that make sure that the person never abreacts, that we're treating all the way through. Now that's not the tapping per se, it's how it's applied. But that makes the big difference.

Right? And so the person never blows out the circuit, never blows out. And then we also go hunting for all the little nooks and crannies, which is another big difference because if you leave, it's like, you know, see if you take a antibiotic and you don't finish the course of treatment and you leave a few of those little buggers around, they just come roaring back. I don't think it's that different with trauma. If you leave things in place, they're not fully treated because they're avoided or whatever.

It sometimes, you know, it's not fully treated, and so it can come back. But if you really go after everything, and you very thorough, which is part of a good protocol does, now you're getting another whole level. So that's not the tapping per se, that's the thoroughness of how you use it, and knowing how to keep people calm and relaxed so the therapist can stay calm and relaxed, so the therapist is willing to go there, because a lot of therapists get really scared. I don't want to upset, I don't want to.

Traumatized people I see that all that is the number one problem. I think people learning of this they're scared to Take somebody through an experience because they're scared to death that they're gonna ab react and they're gonna they're gonna hurt them and the first Rules don't hurt anybody

Peta Stapleton (30:45.532)
Yeah. And on that note, I would absolutely highly recommend, you know, that's when you get supervision and mentoring and more practice and experience. Yeah.

bob (30:53.686)
Oh yeah. Yeah, you have to learn. You don't just learn. I watched a 20 minute video and now I'm an expert. No, no.

Peta Stapleton (31:01.108)
Yeah, and I think that's the point to really highlight here, you know, anyone listening with Bob's comment, that if people just watch a YouTube video online or just tap along maybe with what appears to be a relevant topic for you, but it's not a live interaction, it misses those, like that art of delivery, it's that the skill being used by the therapist in finding all those kind of, you know, nooks and crannies, like you said, the hidden and

you don't get that. I wouldn't get that even just tapping along with a video and I know how to do it.

bob (31:36.088)
That said, I think those things have their place. They, you know, it's like, it's really great if there are really decent stuff out there, things out there that people can self-regulate and they can tap and it's like, you know, and they can do good for themselves. Especially if they keep going at it and they're kind and they're self-compassionate, which is another thing, by the way, at the EFT there's a big.

self-compassion component. And there's a whole aspect of therapy called self-compassion therapy built in DFT. But anyway, so that's all good. But if it doesn't work or you have any reaction, then you go and seek additional help.

Peta Stapleton (32:17.448)
Absolutely. And with anyone's curious, there's research, we've done research, you know, on app-based delivery, online, self-paced delivery, and they're all effective, you know, delivered in the right way. So absolutely true. Bob, okay, my last question, just to hear your thoughts. So what is your hope or vision? Where do you want to see this umbrella term of energy psychology? Where do you want to see it play a role in the world? Or what is your biggest hope?

bob (32:45.198)
Hmm My biggest should I go my biggest hope? You know my biggest hope I've actually been fantasizing about this lately is that people In various levels start using this stuff to self regulate In a way that can be used in so many things. I mean the world right now is so unregulated I'm with just the news

All the anger, all the upset, the othering, the demonizing of other people. I've been kind of thinking about, I've had a conversation with Brad Yates the other day about doing something about tapping around, helping people come down and not see this other person as an other. The fact of the matter is, is we are all human beings. We're all part of this big one. And yes, we have our differences. And I would love to see

a lot more use across the board, whether it be for, you know, it doesn't, like if you're first responders, the police, whenever you see people behaving badly, cops behaving badly, I've never seen a picture of them not being completely overreactive. And so they need more training, not less training, so they can calm their bodies down and to not pathologize it. The thing I...

I tell the story like if you're a farmer or you're a plumber and you go and you're out in the field and you get all dirty, when you come home, what do you do? You take a shower. You clean the stuff off. Nobody pathologizes that. It's just a shower. Well, if you go kick down doors or deal with difficult situations, if you're in the army, if you're a cop or you're a firefighter, you're going to be a cop.

It's not a pathology, you just need a shower, so to speak. You need to, it needs to be normal, and it's okay to know that your body's gonna get, you're gonna get adrenalized, there are all these known reactions, so we can take some time and calm our bodies down without alcohol or drugs. Back to the beginning. And it's not pathological.

bob (35:11.246)
There's no PTSD. It's just I got dirty so to speak. I got adrenalized I'd like to see that become the norm That's one that's one of my things and I'll just say one and I'd like to see the stuff get used you like that I'd like to I'd like to see it also get used more with you know, a Adverse childhood events if in a perfect world. I'd like so there's a lot of studies that show if you've had a lot of

adverse events in childhood, it predicts all kinds of trouble later in life for a lot of good reasons. Wouldn't it be interesting if you go to a doctor and they give you a little test and they say, oh, you got a lot of these scores. And if it was normal, you know what? I'd like to prescribe for you doing a 10 sessions of this stuff, targeting on these things that are known to cause trouble. And then...

I'd like to see a study, I wanna see a long-term study. And then they do that. That's my, that's really, that's been my long-term, like, right, and then I bet you, I'll bet huge sums of money. So, you know, if you go take, if somebody has like breast cancer and they wanna, and then they say, okay, I want you to take Tamoxifen or something like that, it'll cut your chances of recurrence by 50%. That's true relatively.

Peta Stapleton (36:12.024)
Let's put it on the vision board.

bob (36:35.894)
But absolutely it's only, it goes from 4% to 2%. So they spend billions and billions of dollars for 2% improvement from 4 to 2. I know in my bones that if this were done for people...

I know we'd get more than 2% total improvement. And I have to prove it. I'd still, if, you know, I'm just looking for, you know, a few, maybe $50 million, $10 million, $20 million for a long-term study to do it. But, you know, that's my other dream.

Peta Stapleton (37:07.121)
You

Peta Stapleton (37:13.76)
fantastic. And mine is that every little child learns it in school and carries it through. And it's normal. It's normal to just go home and tap all the way through the lifespan. That's mine. So, you know, take that too. We'll swap. Bob, it's just been fabulous. Always love chatting to you and just picking your brain and cooking up the next thing that perhaps, you know, and we are absolutely, you know, currently investigating. So we will have a link.

bob (37:23.555)
That's good. I'll take that one too Yeah

Peta Stapleton (37:39.672)
below in the show notes, just about the current energy psychology study that is happening worldwide at the moment between Bond University and ASEP, looking at all those different things across any energy modality and autonomic nervous system functioning babel tone, polybabel theory. So looking forward to having some outcomes there too. So thank you for your wisdom and for all your great work in the world.

bob (38:01.422)
Thank you, Peter. You're killing it. You're doing a great job. Why are you saying that? You can't use that language. That's violent language. You're doing a great job. You're not using that kind of language. You're doing a great job. You're making a piece of the world.

Peta Stapleton (38:07.96)
In a calm, peaceful way. I love it. Thank you so much. I'll talk to you soon. Okay, bye.